If there hasn't been deliverance, even out of indifference to Christ, can we claim salvation?
And, even of what would superficially seem so slight a change as such a one who has experienced change from indifference to desire to know Christ...that is in fact a vast difference.
Because no one seeks Him, of themselves. Pride would sometimes seek to attest otherwise, but it's just not so.
No one seeks to serve Him, in truth, of themselves. Just as there are a host of alternate reasons folks might actually enter church ministry which don't ultimately involve Christ...then, seeking to serve Christ first, serving others through serving Him...is not something sought, outside of having revelation of who He is.
There are finite distinctions, is all. Point being, ultimately, that no matter how fine the distinction...if a heart has warmed to Christ--recognizing in any way what it means to pride and personal choice to acknowledge Jesus is Lord of all...which includes of even one's own ability to choose to act or not act, except that He would choose it... ...that's not something that would happen, in truth, except He changes the heart.
Outside of Him doing such a work, we all have done what we thought best, at any given moment--whether serving churches, becoming missionaries, or even becoming ministers...
...unless it's first taken in terms of a knowing that Christ being God means He has the sovereign prerogative to either allow or deny our acts, such that we would seek His direction before deciding to act...
...we're still (except for grace) largely acting out the will of the flesh.
His grace is vast, though. Vast enough to even account for such moves. Where, although He wasn't sought, He wasn't turned to for direction, and His will wasn't even a second thought...He yet still condescends to work through such self-efforts, oft in ways which aren't discernible as being heavenly manifestation.
When given an unction, as some say. Then, still, oft heavenly...even if not sought for clarity.
But the base motive, even if unrecognized often, for those who are regenerate...is to draw nearer to Him, to know His love (thus to love) more deeply--Him and, perforce such experience, all others.
There is such a fine point of distinction along these lines, though, in terms of understanding.
What is understanding, according to the flesh, and understanding given by God?
If knowledge, true knowledge, finds its root in fear of God...and wisdom is knowing how to apply knowledge rightly, also beginning with fear of God..
...then what is understanding, except that it be rooted in fear of God, too, rather than fear of one's own propensities for flailing and faltering or even certainty in one's own ability to rightly divide, as perceived to be established according to the words and works of men?
These aren't trivial questions. And they are at root of so many bits of strangeness on both sides an extreme, even today.
If we are not to rely upon our own understanding, but trust in God with all our heart...acknowledging Him in everything (whether vocally or not), as He will direct our paths...
...then, how to know at what point that verges?
Is there any way to know, except it be revealed?
Same as regeneration. Is there any way to experience it, except God, Himself, intervene directly?
Or would we claim ourselves capable of mastering a means of manifesting His saving grace, still?
"Who is the sovereign?," is the point of division which underlies that process, really.
Are we still so proud to think ourselves capable of strong-arming God into acquiescence, so long as we proceed according to a particular pattern which He once honored?...without need of acknowledging He is living, constant, abiding, and present...and that it's by His will alone that each and every individual instance of regeneration occurs, rather than merely a matter of following rote and then expecting Him just to act according to otherwise unseen principles which ever seemed to apply, as outlined through much of Scripture?
Do we decide the process, according to our understanding of how He has intervened in the past? Or do we proceed according to His divine guidance, at any given moment?
Discerned according to a desire to know Him, and His leading...constantly sought. Per Scripture and all else which He has manifest as avenue. If you say Sola Scriptura as the only means to know God, then why do you pray? It is directed in Scripture that we seek God in all of life, as it goes--not only in those moments given to reading. And if He presently only manifests His will within Scripture, then at what point in history did regeneration of human spirits cease to occur? If He ceased to act in ways which are "miraculous" according to scientific understanding, then surely the highest of all such miracles would certainly have also ceased. Even as there are ways to reason either for or against anything and everything, then if the Holy Spirit would give discernment of the will of God, not in contrast but accord to Scripture...then hadn't that ought be honored?
If He no longer speaks, as some would say it's incongruous He would do so or otherwise such instances would be of equivalent weight to Scripture...then how and why do we seek Him to guide us in major life decisions, and even receive such direction, personal?
There's a false dilemma along those particular lines of thought, is all. Which, while Scripture is God's Word revealed to man...
...would we expect Him not to act amongst us, now, in accord with what He has ever done?
Just because we don't see things on a regular basis doesn't meant they don't occur. And just because we see things which appear to be a certain way...doesn't mean they actually are.
Same as both the Pharisees (those who believed in the supernatural, proceeding according to precepts they believed were godly, who yet were undiscerning in knowing the true ways of God) and the Sadducees (those who completely rejected and ignored the supernatural in favor of adhering to strict reliance upon Scripture for direction and interaction with the world, maintaining order) asked Jesus to perform a sign so they would believe in Him...
...same as then, would He now just randomly perform miracles on command, in ways they would be verified always by human understanding, just so to satisfy the minds of those who would rely upon their own understanding, rather than seeking God, alone?
He called them a wicked and adulterous generation, seeking for a sign.
But didn't He perform miracles? Weren't people otherwise healed miraculously and delivered from demons, all while He walked among us, as Immanuel?
He did.
But yet, He wouldn't perform a sign for those who sought them.
He allowed them to continue laboring under preconceptions of what they believed was the proper way to approach God, as they rather would rely upon their own understanding than upon faith.
And yet, He is the author of faith.
Even as He allows us what we would choose, in so many instances--rebelling against Him, rather than seeking Him...securing deeper delusion, reprobate minds, stony hearts.
And yet none can claim ignorance, on the final day.
Even as Psalm 19 says:
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows and proclaims His handiwork.
2 Day after day pours forth speech, and night after night shows forth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor spoken word [from the stars]; their voice is not heard.
4 Yet their voice [in evidence] goes out through all the earth, their sayings to the end of the world. Of the heavens has God made a tent for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; and it rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
And Paul affirmed in Romans 1:
18 For God’s [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth andmake it inoperative.
19 For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them.
20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in andthrough the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],
21 Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and [c]godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.
So, why do we choose our own way? Why do we walk away, and even seeking Him, yet retain a tight grasp on remaining certain of our own understanding?
Even so that those who are regenerate yet always seek to retain a strong hold on the world and the ways in which understanding ever has seemed to come, rather than to know God intimately, as He would have. Unto greater reaches, continual. Through Scripture, nonetheless, and prayer, and all manner of what He would allot and allow, unto even the fellowship and communion with His Holy Spirit, as Paul spoke regarding.
Not merely to rest, then, but to fully abide.
Seeking nothing more than Christ offers.
Himself.
Trusting Him above all. And seeking Him, regardless what would seek to confuse or stymy. Forsaking understanding, even, for sake of knowing Christ.
And then, only what He would give. Even if providing light on prior centuries' ruminations, then in light of who He is, rather than in context of what would otherwise seem self- contained. Such that nothing, in itself, is sufficient unto understanding...apart from Christ.
Would He be so gracious, though?
Why would He not be, moreover? Having sacrificed Himself for our sins, bearing wrath and shame and pain and sin...death...then overcoming even death..
...why, then, would the Father withhold any good thing?
And why is it so fearful a thought to trust Him for such a thing? Because I know the ready rebukes, on that count, as far as that there would seem an uncertainty, a freefalling, a looseness...in releasing all for sake of only knowing Him on His own terms. For taking all things with a grain of salt, no matter how long esteemed by men.
But what else is there?
A finite grasp? A limited scope? A restriction to understanding, only according to the understanding which others have seemed to attain?
Why not, instead, seek Him for Himself, as He would reveal Himself through Scripture and prayer and devout worship in all means...and then seek to understand what all there may be seen as prior established understanding, but in light of who Christ is, rather than as certain understanding, established, succinct, solitary.
Arguments regarding time having tested or proved these things wholly true for having long been relied upon is a false argument, at best. A paraphrase of one more recent secular philosopher is apt, "A long tradition of not believing a thing false gives it the superficial appearance of being right."
Each and every thought has to be brought to subjection to Christ, then why wouldn't also every single thought produced by anyone else? This, as even Scripture is ripe for false application, without Holy intervention. Otherwise, there'd be no admonition toward rightly dividing truth and there'd have been no remark made by Peter, in terms of how even then Paul's writing had apparently proven especially apt for wrong interpretation and erroneous application within churches of their day.
Same as He noted that Scripture was given by the Holy Spirit, thus not to be attempted for interpretation apart from His guidance. Otherwise, even the slightest of error might come.
And so, how to know?
Is tradition sufficient to protect from error? Even centuries old tradition?
Perhaps look to the Sadducees and Pharisees, on that account. Jesus said they testified of themselves that it was their fathers who killed the prophets, even by mentioning that had they been there, they would not have done the same.
And yet, they were descended, living to make such a statement of arrogance as though they were less prone to error than those who preceded them, falling into such dire error--even being the very people who adhered superficially to the very Words of God... ...the temple masters. The ones who entered the Holy of Holies.
If that doesn't at least momentarily send a chill or unto quaking of terror down your spine, then perhaps there's need to seek God reveal more which is and has been in your heart.
We're talking about the very individuals who entered the Holy of Holies, some of them. Caiaphas, for example. Being the High Priest, that would have been his responsibility.
Unto those whom the very Words of God were given. Those who made such a study of these that their entire lives were given to study and a purported upholding of those tenets set forth in Scripture...
...whether, with the Pharisees, including the interpretations and applications set forth by lauded and revered elders in centuries past who were regarded as holy and rightful interpreters...themselves, leaders and respected religious leaders of the nation...
...Oral traditions.
Mishnah, with commentary, now the Talmud.
Just, as a point of consideration, there.
A long history of thinking a thing right doesn't make it so.
Error crops up, day to day, so how much moreso when continually referred to as traditionally correct?
Caiaphas was he who deemed it utmost necessary to dispose of Jesus.
Which, as we now know...is our salvation, in that He chose to sacrifice Himself through such a way, even as to endure our due, even unto death. Which He overcame, taking His life up again, as was His authority to so do. And eternally reigning.
But how much a warning should that peal, though?
That even those who were direct recipients of the Words of God...who sought to establish rigorous interpretation, unto rightful practice...over centuries even reached a point of failing to recognize God, at all?
Even as He yet worked through them, in and through Christ, unto what sacrifice has atoned and redeemed many?
Again, thinking tradition was sufficient. Thinking arduous application to apparently incontrovertible truths of Scripture...equated to service of God, in truth.
That rings a dire warning, to me, at least.
How easy is it, then, to fall into error, even leaning upon the teachings of those who came before, most revered for their reverence and attentiveness to God's Word?
...and, alternately, as with the Sadducees, even leaning wholly upon the words of Scripture for direction?...while simultaneously having somehow failed to seek the God of which they attest, in truth?
Entire lives devoted to these pursuits, is the thing.
Not just a couple hours a day, devotional.
Not just a Sabbath.
Their entire lives.
And yet, they did not know Christ.
And, yet, their forefathers persecuted the prophets sent of God.
Are we better than they are?
Are we somehow more capable of attaining to God, in our somehow seen more apt means of understanding?
He said that none seek Him.
Even as He draws a people who have not sought Him.
And no temptation is given but that which is common to all of man, so if it continually comes to me to combat error--but by grace, alone, and not according to any ability in self...
...then, aren't we all continually buffeted, and all the more susceptible when we reach a point of having come to believe we have summat attained any comprehensive understanding?
Paul, Himself, stated that those who reach a point of believing themselves in a position of knowing then have all the more to turn, repent, and seek God!
These things make no comprehensive sense, in the natural, but all would find resolution in Christ, in who He is, and in how He is.
So, even as there are those who would claim that even truth spoken in a wrong spirit had yet still ought be heeded...there's curiosity, then, in regard to the "teachings" of Job's friends.
They spoke truth, in such a way.
Was it less truth for having been spoken in a wrong spirit, in a wrong place?
God, Himself, rebuked them.
He made them to come to Job, seeking He would intervene on their behalf, for having so maligned truth as to speak it in error.
Are we less susceptible to this sort of error?
And if not, then what are we to do, in terms of seeing the inherent tendency for error which so readily springs from even our best intention at understanding (even as a whole, centuries-spanning body of believers...akin as Israel in many ways)...except forsake our understanding and seek that the God who gives all light would enlighten our minds and direct our every step, unto rightful thinking?
Would He not continually correct our thinking, and direct our studies and understanding?
Would not He who even gave His only begotten Son also give to us a right knowledge of Him, in spirit and in truth?
...yet drawing us back from error?
...directing our every step?
Would He not do these things?
Would we call Him a liar, for the sake of saving face and preserving a sense of self-confidence?
People have fallen into error with far lesser intents than to know and seek God, in truth, on His own terms, rather than our own. And those whom He allows will continue to do so. Even as those who are His and who seek Him, requiring Him as utmost necessity...those, He said, would find Him.
As for me...I'd rather know God than know what men have thought of Him.
Even as I would then also seek to know Him through what He's revealed of Himself to others.
But if I ever see only a reflection and never come to know Christ more deeply, Himself...what is that?
...as even reflections sometimes do strangely distort, then yet there'd be no recognition except to know the One whom they reflect. Even as only He could or would be able to make way for such a thing.
Then, as it is an option so to seek--He said He would be found by those who seek Him with all their heart...then, what higher, greater end could ever be sought?
Not merely to know, according to words...even those which are His own...but to know Him from whom they have come.
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